Norwescon Clubs

I heard the term “Body Tipping” and I have not been able to find a definition. I had several people tell me that “Body tipping is legal” but I spent considerable time trying to find the statute or even a definition as it applies to donations without luck. I found a reference to belly dancers but nothing indicating that what they were doing was legal (it even implied they were dodging income tax). Can someone please post a link to the statute that covers body tipping or is this a made up term that just sounds official. I’m trying to write our (the gnomes) donation policy and I want to make sure that I’m using the correct terminology.
Thanks,
Jeff

I coined this term when I spoke with the WSLCB. I called them and the conversation went like this-

"Ok, so tip jars are not ok on the bar, no problem. However is it cool when someone slides a tip into a cute girls top?"

*LOL* "Well, what she does with her own money is her own thing."

"So, if someone does a body shot off of her and then gives her a $20, she can keep it?"

*LOL* "Yes, it's her's at that point. You guys must throw a great party..."

"We do try."

The break down is like this- tipping the person is fine because they're part of the show and not donating for alcohol. Presently, it's not specifically prohibited by the RCW's or WAC's, and as such after double checking with my legal service it is apparently cool.

~Sean

PS I *HIGHLY* recomend getting a prepaid legal service. It's cheap and you can ask them anything. It's like $16 a month and a great investment if you ever have questions.

No wonder I could not find “Body Tipping” at the online legal references (no fair making up terms). I’m concerned that we have no real protection from the “body tipping concept” unless the legal service or the WSLCB clerk can cite a specific law. If you can please ask them for clarification/details I would appreciate it.

I would also like to know if the “No tip jar at the bar” is a real legal issue or just made up by that clerk. I understand if the bartender is telling guest “that drink is a $5.00 donation” and then tapping the donating jar they are in fact selling drinks. We had a WSLCB agent and police at our parties last year with a donation jar at the bar and we did not have a problem. In fact we have had a tip jar on our bar for half a dozen public parties with the presence or law enforcement and they told us we were on the level. We were even selling souvenir cups, but had paper cups of the same size for people that did not want to donate without being pushy. I’m sure if we were breaking the law we would have been fined or at least warned, but if anyone can point out where in the legal code donations on a bar are addressed. Please post the information so we can adjust our policy.

Morak wrote:I would also like to know if the “No tip jar at the bar” is a real legal issue or just made up by that clerk.

Under a traditional banquit permit, all alcoholic drinks must be free of charge. Any sort of coersion (ie Tip Jars) for restitution for drinks is prohibited.

Under next years special events license, no such prohibitation exists.

Effectively, it's the States wayof milking more money out of folks. You cannot ask for tips for a $10 permit, but for a $60 you sure can. You must also have an NPO to ge a special events license, and they may ask if it's a cultural, artistic, or ethnic based.

Feel free to check out thwe WSLCB web site for more details.

~Sean

I’m still looking for the laws regarding donations but and I found the statute that prohibits people from skimming or outright keeping donations collected by a not-for-profit event. I thought someone accepting $20 for allowing a guest to body shot off of her sounded too good to be true. “Body Tipping” may still be legal under an exception law that I just can’t find (and would love help locating). Sec.2 RCW 66.24.375 does allow you to pay your DGs (services performed) but if your entertainers have a sexual nature we might be straying into prostitution laws. They recently arrested several people for playing the game “Donations are exchanged for my time only; everything else is between consenting adults”. I don’t mind if other parties take their chances but I have a security clearance to protect and I know we have people working for WAMU and they will suspend and then fire you if you are even accused of a serious crime by the police (it happened in my department to one of our hardest working employees). Keep in mind my goal is to prove the donation collections are legal and protect us from the growing number of people that are trying to make holding con parties painful and cost prohibitive. It would be great if any of the lawyers or laymen that have stated the donations are legal/illegal could sight their sources. A link to a legal source is best and not just the home page to the Washington State legislator (www.leg.wa.gov). I have been burned by “you must have misunderstood what I said” by those discount phone lawyers in the past and without documentation or even proof of the conversation I was hosed.

Key section regarding profits paid to members of a not-for-profit group.

No portion of the profits from events sponsored by a not-for-profit group may be paid directly or indirectly to members, officers, directors, or trustees except for services performed for the organization.

Quote in context:
"Sec. 1 RCW 66.24.375 and 1997 c 321 s 61 are each amended to read as follows:
"Society or organization" as used in RCW 66.24.380 means a not-for-profit group organized and operated (1) solely for charitable, religious, social, political, educational, civic, fraternal, athletic, or benevolent purposes, or (2) as a local wine industry association registered under section 501(c)(6) of the internal revenue code as it exists on the effective date of this section. No portion of the profits from events sponsored by a not-for-profit group may be paid directly or indirectly to members, officers, directors, or trustees except for services performed for the organization. Any compensation paid to its officers and executives must be only for actual services and at levels comparable to the compensation for like positions within the state. A society or organization which is registered with the secretary of state or the federal internal revenue service as a nonprofit organization ((may)) shall submit such registration, upon request, as proof that it is a not-for-profit group.

The Link full statute:
http://search.leg.wa.gov/pub/textsearch ... 085757&p=1

Disclaimer
Remember to always read in context (not just the sentence that supports what you want the law to say). There are a lot of exceptions, out dated (unenforced) and conflicting laws and I’m not suggesting that laymen replace lawyers (unless we get rid of all of them and have honest strait forward laws) but without documentation it’s hard to distinguish opinion from law. My opinion is we should be able to legally cover some of the cost of our parties now I’m looking for the documentation to back up that opinion. I would like to thank the people that are taking time to help keep us safe (settle nod in the direction of NEO Paradigm, Mcbastard, and Yogsothoth and there crew).

Oh now, we aren't straying into prostitution laws.

I believe what "Sec. 1 RCW 66.24.375 and 1997 c 321 s 61" talks about is profits being "used as payment" (in/directly) for the members instead of it going to the organization itself, and the comparable amount of those payments.

And I'm pretty sure it doesn't have anything to do with serving/tipping at an event, or the regulations involved with that, but I am damn curious to know just what laws do cover that.

And akin to what you mentioned earlier, generally "officials" who are checking these parties just want to make sure any major problems are nipped in the bud, e.g. checking ID's so minors aren't drinking, too-drunk-to-fuck folks are being cut-off, permits are had, and neighbors aren't upset.

So, my unskilled vote is for allowing body shots. But If I had my way, it would be 21 and over only for the parties (except for staff).

I think putting out a donation bucket it legitimate, based on the vast number of police office that have audited my parties in the past. It would be nice to know what law allows this but I’m not too concerned. However the scenario describes for body tipping was a girl taking tips and keeping them.

Mcbastard wrote:I
"So, if someone does a body shot off of her and then gives her a $20, she can keep it?"

*LOL* "Yes, it's her's at that point. You guys must throw a great party..."

The clerk was condoning a volunteer skimming tips from a not-for-profit or nonprofit origination (“it’s hers at that point”). Honestly if all the tips ended up in the tip jar who cares, however it was also suggested that volunteer should steel (skim) some of the tips based on concept that they earned it. My point is the clerk that claimed tip jars at the bar are illegal suggested (or agreed to) a practice that is not only legal but possibly out of context.

I like the tip jar on the bar so we can help make change and I don’t have to sacrifice another security volunteer to watch a jar. I’m just asking for the specific statute to verify that the donation policies I’m writing for my club is based on facts. At that same Con I heard people saying that “as long as an employee does not use the door you can smoke in front of it” and “you can’t get pregnant the first time you have sex”. The Tip jar law sounded just as credible and I did get a good laugh at the road scholars making up the laws of man and nature, I’m hoping they used a condom.

Jeff

Here's an idea-

Call the WSLCB and ask them.

*Shrug*

take the guesswork out of it entirely. Moreoever, I'm sure they can get or point you to the info you need.

The one thing I learned from college was that when it comes to medicine, finances, and law even the professionals turn to another professional just to make sure they have their facts straight. Thus my recomendation to check with the WSLCB and ask them hypothetical questions.

~Sean

No one I called could find a law addressing proximity of donations collection from a bar when you have a banquette permit. If this was an actual law I would like to know how far the Tip Jar needed to be from the bar and still be legal. It would be funny if the tip jar had to be 25 feet away so you donate and smoke.

At this point I willing to call it a myth and if I get harassed by the LCB I can at least site this forum as proof no one else could find the law. They really should print it on the permit with all of the other restrictions.